> I believe the following boxes are missing:
> both Fanno Creek boxes
> placed by Der Mad Stamper in Beavercreek, OR

That box where you have to cross over using the log--that box is
definitely missing. I found it shortly after it was hidden so I knew
exactly where to look, and a later checkup on the box showed it as
missing.

As for the other one--it's hard to believe that one is missing
because it's VERY cleverly hid. Even when you're looking in the
right place some people have reported trouble finding it (including
myself!). If you're looking in the right place, be sure to to stick
your arm in that hole as far as it can possibly go, 'cause otherwise
you're gonna miss it. If you've ever found the Multnomah Falls box
and how difficult it is find (even when you're looking in the right
spot!), this is much the same. (Perhaps *slightly* easier, though,
since there are fewer holes that need checking!)

Hope this helps!

-- Ryan

Thanks, Ryan. I was sure I was in the right place with that box where you
cross over the log (it just HAD to be right!)--thanks for the confirmation
that it's missing. I sent word to the webmaster--is that the correct
protocol? (I'm new to all this.) But that second one...hmmm, how annoyed
with myself I'll be if it really WAS in that spilt tree after all. I didn't
stick my hand way in, just had a look. And I wasn't really sure I was in the
correct place--it was supposed to be a "grove of cedars" but I saw only
two...which I wouldn't call a grove...

I may have to give that one another try.

Thanks!
Pat

> I sent word to the webmaster--is that the correct protocol?

Fascinating question. Typically, you need comfirmation from someone
who "knows" the location of the box (typically the person who wrote the
clues). Otherwise, posting to the list is best as it builds up a "fuzzy"
notion of whether the box is missing (all to often, people who report
boxes missing are wrong, therefore (IMHO), it is best to ignore these
reports unless there are tons of them without rebuttal).

In this case, Ryan claims a position of ownership (w.r.t. to this
question), which typically would be fine (we all trust Ryan), but there
are wrinkles (which surely are not at work here), where this would not
be the case (forgetting the case of some newbie who claims to have found
it, then claims it is missing, just to be a jerk) -- there are at least
two boxes I could cause to "go missing", one created by someone else,
without me moving them nor changing their clues.

> (I'm new to all this.)

You'll learn to ignore my ravings :-)

But, if you like my ravings, you can join me on the group chat channel
now ...

Cheers

> Thanks, Ryan. I was sure I was in the right place with that box
> where you cross over the log (it just HAD to be right!)

You know, the first time I went out hunting for that box, I knew
without a doubt I was looking in the right place and it still took me
a half hour to find the darned box. You have to be careful with Der
Mad Stamper--he's famous for hiding it in very tricky spots that even
if you're looking in the right place it's still difficult to find!
When I went back later to check on it, I probably spent another half
hour thinking, "I know it's got to be here somewhere!!!" before
finally conceeding that it must be missing. His Multnomah Falls box
is probably the most 'infamous' for its particularly difficult-to-
find location that NOBODY has ever found on their first outing out so
far as I know. Most people take at least two or three attempts
before finding that box. (I'm a quick learner--it only took me two
attempts. *wink*)

> But that second one...hmmm, how annoyed with myself I'll be if it
> really WAS in that spilt tree after all. I didn't stick my hand
> way in, just had a look.

Yeah, I'd definitely go back and check that one again if you didn't
actually stick your hand in the hole. You shouldn't be able to see
it just be looking in. The hole is a lot deeper than it seems and
you'll have to stick your arm in at least up to your elbow if you're
going to have any hope of retrieving it. Bring gloves--it makes it
MUCH easier. I don't think I'd have gotten the box if I hadn't
brought gloves for such an 'emergency'! It's creepy sticking your
whole arm into a hole you can't see into!

> And I wasn't really sure I was in the
> correct place--it was supposed to be a "grove of cedars" but I saw
> only two...which I wouldn't call a grove...

I didn't count the trees, but I seem to remember much more than two.
It's been awhile since I've been there though, and just because the
box was there the last time I visited the site doesn't mean it still
is. The box really could be missing. Perhaps the tree was cut down
due to disease? (You don't see lots of stumps where you think the
box might have been, do you?) I'd love to check on it and assure you
it's there, but I'm kind of in California at the moment (just kind of-
-my heart will always be in Oregon *wink*) and it'll be a long while
before I'll get a chance to get back. (Perhaps as late as next
winter!)

Speaking of that tree, though, in case I never mentioned it before, I
had an amusing story regarding looking for that letterbox. It was
only the fourth letterbox I had ever gone looking for so I was still
very much a newbie and after hunting down three other of Der Mad
Stamper's boxes, I wasn't going to leave without sticking my arm down
that hole and searching that cavity very thoroughly before calling it
quits. And what was the first thing that I found? A stash of porn!
I felt it and thought, "Ah-ha! I found the letterbox!" Pulled out
the stuff and imagine my shock to discover a bunch of porn in my
hands. Mostly cut out from magazines, although a couple of entire
pages were there as well. It was badly decomposing. And I started
thinking, is this a sick, twisted joke? Is this from some kid that
didn't want his mother to find it in his bedroom?

In any case, I packed it up and threw it away when I got back into
the vicinity of a trash can and chalked it up a 'war story' I could
talk about whenever I actually met some other boxers. =)

-- Ryan

> Typically, you need comfirmation from someone
> who "knows" the location of the box

I agree, you should always get confirmation from someone who "knows"
the location of the box. Even when you swear up and down you're
looking at the right place so it must be missing, it's too easy to
get it wrong. Certain boxes even have bad habits as regularly being
reported missing but turns out, nope, they just missed the box. And
if it's a newbie reporting the box missing, there's a VERY good
chance they're wrong. The more experience someone has letterboxing,
the less of a chance they'll report false positives (or positive
faults as the case may be?) You grow a sixth sense about where boxes
might be hidden and (even better) after finding several of a certain
person's boxes, you start getting a good idea of the types of
locations they might be more inclined to hide the box. Consequently,
you're more likely to be successful and less likely to report boxes
that are missing or not.

> In this case, Ryan claims a position of ownership

Well, I wouldn't use the word 'ownership' since I never actually hid
the box. Just claims to have found it before it had gone missing.

> but there are wrinkles (which surely are not at work here)

That's true, I could have a deep, secret hatred of Der Mad Stamper
and his frustrating clues and report some of his boxes are missing
even when they aren't. If you trust me, you'll just assume I'm
an "expert" on the box and take my word at face value. If you don't,
well, that's another story.... If you've ever watched the X-Files,
the motto "Trust no one" does have a certain element of truth to it.
I'm probably not universally liked on this board, but as a whole I
think I'm generally considered trust-worthy if nothing else. *wink*

But even then, there have been known instances of some well-meaning
individuals deliberately MOVING a box for it's own well-being and
then not telling anyone about it for a long while. I've even done
that once before at Sweet Springs Preserve when the box was in
absolutely plain view and upon checking the logbook discovered that
over 40 people had logged into it--and not a single one of them was a
letterboxer! I immediately rehid the box in a different location
nearby and e-mailed the owner letting them know what I did. That
particular clue was never published on the website, though (only a
word-of-mouth type of clue--don't for a second think the website is a
complete listing of all letterboxes!), and it never caused anyone to
report its premature dismise. (Although, as it turns out, the box
has since ligitamately gone missing after a construction project went
through the area.)

There's a letterbox at Arches National Park I was *THIS* tempted to
relocate because it was so far off the trail. With signs and
warnings everywhere not to go off the trail because of "endangered
dirt" where a single footprint could cause decades of damage, it
seemed totally irresponsible to place it so far off the trail like it
was and frankly, it rather ticked me off that someone did so. First
I was inclined not to go get the box in the first place, and even
after finding the box I was tempted to move it for the preservation
of the environment. If the park service ever finds that letterbox,
there's no doubt it'll be gone in a heartbeat anyhow. I guess the
ONLY reason I didn't move the box was because of the rain, thunder,
lightning, and hail that was bearing down and the thought it's so far
out of the way that few people ever go out to get it which limits the
damage that could be done. I was too lazy to do it! I don't take
moving someone else's box very lightly (a serious breech of
etiquette), but sometimes it would be almost criminal not to! (I do
hope that somebody either steals the box or replaces it--it still
bugs on my conscious that I never did anything about it.) In any
case, had I actually moved the box, there would have been a lag time
between when I actually moved it and the time it was reported as
moved, during which time several people might ligitamately claim the
box was 'missing' even though they were looking in the correct
location and perhaps had even found the box before!

Other times people have inadvertantly carried out a box thinking it
was trash (which kind of gives me a goody-goody feeling inside that
so many people are willing to pick up other people's trash in the
woods for the benifit of all) before discovering it really wasn't
trash and putting it back a few weeks later.

Which is all to say, I guess you can't really always be sure a box is
truly missing or not--even if you were the one who hid it!

Anyhow.... given all these uncertainties, it's totally
understandable why the webmasters wouldn't want to remove a box or
listing from the website without express permission from the person
who hid the box in the first place. The best thing you can do if you
suspect a box is missing is to contact the owner and let them decide
if the box really is missing or not and, if it is missing, ask the
webmasters to remove the box from the website.

I've gone on long enough. Farewell!

-- Ryan

You're right, Ryan! That Fanno Creek box IS there! A friend
checked and lo & behold.... I'll go back soon to conquer that thing
myself. Since I easily found my first box right where the clues led me,
it hadn't occured to me before your e-mail that I could be in the
right spot and STILL have a challenge in getting my hands on the
letterbox.

Re: your porn find--LOL! At that Greenway tree, I dug in the duff
of that hollow like a dog after a bone, so I was certain there was
no box there (or porn either!)

Thanks for the tips...

> You're right, Ryan! That Fanno Creek box IS there!

Glad to hear that box is still alive and well! =)

> it hadn't occured to me before your e-mail that I could be in the
> right spot and STILL have a challenge in getting my hands on the
> letterbox.

Yeah, that Mr. Stamper guy is really good at finding devilishly
tricky spots to hide his boxes. Which is a good thing to keep in
mind if you go looking for any of his other boxes!

-- Ryan